References:
The New Liturgical Movement
What Does the Prayer Really Say
Rorate Caeli
Thursday, February 07, 2008
Pope Benedict XVI and the Roman Chasuble
Pope Benedict XVI continues to educate us with regards to the Liturgy. Yesterday, marked return of the roman chasuble (Borromeo style) in the papal liturgy, worn by the Vicar of Christ himself with the cardinal deacons. This is the continuation of the reform of the reform as envisioned by our Holy Father. All the liturgists of the Roman Rite (TIP: the Philippine Church belongs to the Roman Rite) should study, learn and appreciate the education Pope Benedict XVI is giving us with regards to the liturgy.
References:
The New Liturgical Movement
What Does the Prayer Really Say
Rorate Caeli
References:
The New Liturgical Movement
What Does the Prayer Really Say
Rorate Caeli
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9 comments:
May mali ka ata... You are the one who must study the Liturgy again.
Hindi ipinagbawal ang Roman Chasuble. Kahit saan pwede yan gamitin kahit nagka-Vatican II na.
Maybe you have heard the word "Inculturation." Hindi ibinabalik ni Pope Benedict XVI ang tridentine practices, he is doing the inculturated liturgy of the Diocese of Rome. Rome is a diocese, he has independence with the liturgical practices of his local Church. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome.
Please change your comment, you are giving heresy against the Liturgy of the Roman Church.
Isa pa, Pope Benedict is a German, Liturgical Renewal Movement started with the Germans. But as Pope and head of the Church and BISHOP OF ROME, I repeat, BISHOP OF ROME, he is adapting what is right for the country or the local Church.
INCULTURATION... not rewinding the present to the past. Inculturation teaches us to love what is IN THE CHURCH so that people, the CHURCH may love more the liturgy.
I hope it is clear. You have good points but this is not right...
Thanks.
-DDC
A little correction:
-*some of the liturgy fathers are from Germany... germans... who fought for Liturgical Renewal...
DDC:
To be fair to Gerald, he never mentioned that Roman vestments were suppressed-- all he said is that they have returned after a very long hiatus. You can stand behind that party line all you want, but the fact remains that the Roman chasuble was looked upon as a backwards symbol, and was in praxis almost banned. Recall for example the Gothic chasuble, which, while never abrogated, nevertheless fell into disuse in the wake of the Counter Reformation and the succeeding centuries. So, by your logic, one would be in grave heresy for simply saying that the Gothic chasuble did not enjoy much popularity for some centuries in Europe!
Also, HH's being German has nothing to do with his being a liturgical reformer; if anything, I think he is a liturgical restorer. Again you can bandy the 'incultration' banner all you like, but all the evidence so far seems to point in an increased effort on the Pope's part to restore much of the Romanitas which had been lost in the often decadent excesses done to the Liturgy in the name of reform.
Wala ng kailangan i-restore sa Liturgy. Ang kailangan ayusin ay ang mga pag-iisip na iilang Katolikong Pilipino na akala nila ay tama pero mali.
I've done my part. I reacted and that's it.
"all he said is that they have returned after a very long hiatus."
- Bakit nawala ba? Hindi naman ah. Over reacting naman...
"So, by your logic, one would be in grave heresy for simply saying that the Gothic chasuble did not enjoy much popularity for some centuries in Europe!"
- Yan ang sa palagay ninyo. Nawala yan during the Tridentine Era.
"but all the evidence so far seems to point in an increased effort on the Pope's part to restore much of the Romanitas which had been lost in the often decadent excesses done to the Liturgy in the name of reform."
- Wala nawala. Tayo ang mga nawawala...
Tama si DDC. I think he has a point. Na over-react lang talaga kasi hindi naman talaga nawala ang Roman Chasuble. Pumunta kasi kayo sa Europe, my gosh, araw-araw makikita ninyo nakatalikod ang pari pero Novus Ordo ang Misa, naka-Roman Chasuble o naka-Gothic man... Alam ninyo, dahil sa mga ideologies ninyong mga so-called "Traditionalist" na kabataang Pilipino, kayo nag nagpapahiwalay ng pagkakaisa ng Simbahang Katoliko.
The best way to believe is this, sino ba ang nag-aral sa inyo ng Theology or Liturgy? Kasi baka mamaya react kayo ng react, wala naman pala kayong alam... lalu lang lumalala... kung walang alam, wag na lang magsalita.
"Little knowledge hurts."
Naku Gerald, wag mo na lang pansinin sila. Ako bahala sa'yo bro. Basta, read again their comments at sino ba ang tama. Kung may mga point, idagdag mo na lang sa iyong article. Chasuble lang yan... hehehe
Guys, wag na lang natin painitin.
Gerald, do you have some scheds of the Tridentine Mass in Fr. Zerrudo's church? (Bigla daw bang nagtanong).
DDC, nice site! Liturgist ka ba? I saw you once in the Cathedral of Cubao last St. Therese...
Maybe you have heard the word "Inculturation." Hindi ibinabalik ni Pope Benedict XVI ang tridentine practices, he is doing the inculturated liturgy of the Diocese of Rome. Rome is a diocese, he has independence with the liturgical practices of his local Church. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome.
>>>>Can you please cite your authority on this? Kung si Pope Benedict ay hindi nagbabalik sa “Tridentine” practices, rather your so-called inculturation then how do we take into account Summorum Pontificum? Do you still consider this Papal mandate “inculturation”? Under what context should we place these recent acts of the Pope, ad orientem Mass, prayer for the Jews, Reform of the reform, more traditional vestments, etc? So are you saying that Pope John Paul II was not following this “inculturating” trend, since he rarely used the traditional vestments or any traditional elements in the liturgy, the way Pope Benedict is now doing? Do you have any clear proof that the Pope was just doing an “inculturated” liturgy in his Diocese, when in his books, as Cardinal Ratzinger, he banners his intention on bringing back Tradition in the entire Roman rite. When majority of the people of the world were quite surprised by what he is doing, now that he’s pope.END
Please change your comment, you are giving heresy against the Liturgy of the Roman Church.
>>>>And who made you the “pope”? Can we ask when was the “dogma” of inculturation defined as part of the Catholic faith? What ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church that says: If a man believes there is no inculturation in the Roman rite, which was so ground in the deposit of faith, let him be anathema?” Will you please cite any infallible declaration where a pope or an Ecumenical Council says this? You should be more careful my friend, in pointing out “heresies” when there is NONE involved; it gives us the signal that you can’t distinguish heresy. You wouldn’t know whether you’re already flirting with it.END
Isa pa, Pope Benedict is a German, Liturgical Renewal Movement started with the Germans. But as Pope and head of the Church and BISHOP OF ROME, I repeat, BISHOP OF ROME, he is adapting what is right for the country or the local Church.
>>>>This is just your speculation and we Catholics can rightfully reject it since there is NO concrete evidence pertaining to your claim. This argument fails to provide the “missing link” between the Pope being a German thus Liturgical Renewal Movement, and Bishop of Rome adapting what is right for the local Church. There is NO valid connection or motive to support this allusion that he is doing this for the sake of the “dogma” of inculturation. Clearly, it’s a genetic fallacy. Now, let me “have your cake and eat it too”, assuming that the Pope is doing this just because he is the Bishop of Rome, but let us also remember that he IS the head of the entire Roman Church (the Philippines included), then it is but right, according to your own logic, for the Pope to “force” all ‘Roman’ Catholics (Filipinos included) to subscribe to the traditional vestments and Roman liturgical “culture”, after all it’s our liturgical culture being ‘Roman’ Catholics, part of the entire ‘Roman’ Church. Likewise the Pope should also respect the Eastern Catholics with their respective liturgical cultures as well.END
INCULTURATION... not rewinding the present to the past. Inculturation teaches us to love what is IN THE CHURCH so that people, the CHURCH may love more the liturgy.
>>>>Again, providing an authoritative and infallible source will be most helpful for us to understand the “dogma” of inculturation. Neither is our concept of Tradition “rewinding the present to the past”, Tradition is NOT a “rewind” but a step forward, or a handing-down – the past handing down the truth to the present, and the present in turn being faithful to what has he received from the past.END
I hope it is clear. You have good points but this is not right...
>>>>If the author’s statements had “good points” but is in fact ‘not right’, then I ask, which part of his statements are both ‘good’ but not right? You nearly condemned the author for preaching (or posting rather) “heresy” just a while ago, now you’re conceding that his statements are in fact “good points”? Something that is “not right” is bad, not good. You’re fooling no one.END
Thanks.
>>>No thanks.
- Bakit nawala ba? Hindi naman ah. Over reacting naman...
It's ironic you accuse people who are sympathetic to the Tridentine Rite as being elitist when this comment smirks of a very know-it-all attitude.
It's not so much that it became less visible that's the issue but the fact that the Roman vestments became associated with a reactionary mindset-- something which did NOT develop overnight, but was heavily influenced by the Vat. II ethos.
And yes, like it or not, majority of people (especially young ones like myself) have never even 'heard' of Roman chasubles and the like, let alone seen them, until recently. But of course you would have all priests celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in polyester and badly designed overlay stoles...
- Yan ang sa palagay ninyo. Nawala yan during the Tridentine Era... Wala nawala. Tayo ang mga nawawala...
That's just classic.
Hi Everyone!
Isn't it a wonderful sight to behold to see priests wear the proper vestments at Holy Mass. It reminds us who he represents and that what he is about to do is a sacred action "...offering a pure victim, a holy victim, a spotless victim," a "...holy and perfect sacrifice" and he leads all of us to turn towards the Lord, to meet Him in this Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with "all the angels and saints" giving Him thanks and praise.
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